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Top > Musicians Related to C.P.E. Bach > Haydn > Composers Haydn Learned From

This site introduces unknown composer Emanuel Bach (C. P. E. Bach). This English version was translated from Japanese one by ChatGPT.

Composers Haydn Learned From

I asked ChatGPT4o: "When Haydn started composing, which composersʼ works did he study?"[One of the important composers he learned from was Emanuel Bach, and the influence from Emanuel Bach and Christian Bach is summarized in HaydnFromBach.html">The Influence of the Bach Family on Haydn.]

When Franz Joseph Haydn began composing, the composers he is said to have studied include the following:

Haydn_portrait_by_Thomas_Hardy.jpg

  1. Giovanni Battista Pergolesi: Haydn modeled his work on Pergolesiʼs operas and sacred music, influenced by their melodic and harmonic beauty.

  2. Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach: Emanuel Bachʼs expressive music greatly influenced Haydn, particularly through his clavier works, from which Haydn learned an emotionally rich performance style.

  3. Antonio Vivaldi: Vivaldiʼs concerto form and rhythmic energy influenced Haydnʼs instrumental music.

  4. Alessandro Scarlatti: Scarlattiʼs operas and vocal works also influenced Haydnʼs compositional style.

  5. Johann Joseph Fux: Fuxʼs counterpoint textbook “Gradus ad Parnassum” played a crucial role in Haydnʼs musical education, contributing to his improvement in counterpoint techniques.

By studying the works and styles of these composers, Haydn honed his compositional techniques and established his unique musical style.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Haydnʼs early works donʼt seem to resemble the works of the composers listed above. Rather, they seem closer to the style of Joseph Stamitz. What do you think?"

It is indeed reasonable to feel that Haydnʼs early works are closer in style to Joseph Stamitz. The influence of the Mannheim School, established by Johann Stamitz and Joseph Stamitz, is particularly evident in the following aspects:

  1. Structure and Style of Symphonies: Haydnʼs early symphonies were influenced by the Mannheim School, characterized by clear structures and dynamic contrasts. Techniques such as the “Mannheim Rocket” (a rapid ascending figure) and the “Mannheim Crescendo” (a gradual increase in volume) are evident.

  2. Orchestration: Haydnʼs early orchestration reflects the Mannheim Schoolʼs sophisticated use of wind instruments and a sense of balance within the orchestra.

  3. Emotional Expression: The Mannheim School emphasized expressive performance, which also influenced Haydnʼs early works. The emphasis on emotional fluctuations and dramatic elements is a common feature.

However, while Haydn was influenced by the Stamitz brothers, he was also quick to establish his own unique style. Haydnʼs works are characterized by the addition of his creativity and humor, alongside these influences.

Below are examples that specifically demonstrate the influence of the Stamitz brothers on Haydnʼs early works.

  1. Symphony No. 1 (Hob. I:1): This symphony is heavily influenced by the Mannheim School, characterized by clear form and expressive passages.

  2. String Quartet Op. 1: Early string quartets also reflect the symphonic approach of the Mannheim School, with clearly defined roles for each instrument.

Thus, while Haydnʼs early works show a strong influence from the Mannheim School, he developed his own unique style based on these influences.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Is there also an influence from Italian Baroque composers in Symphony No. 1?"

Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 also shows influences from Italian Baroque composers. Specifically, the following aspects highlight the influence of Italian Baroque music:

  1. Three-Movement Form: Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 is structured in a typical three-movement form (fast-slow-fast), similar to the concerto form established by Italian Baroque composers like Alessandro Scarlatti and Antonio Vivaldi.

  2. Fluency of Melody: Italian Baroque music is characterized by flowing and beautiful melodic lines. Haydnʼs early symphonies also exhibit such melodic fluency and cantabile elements.

  3. Harmony and Counterpoint: Italian Baroque music is known for contrapuntal techniques and clear harmonic progressions. Haydnʼs early symphonies reflect the influence of Italian Baroque music through contrapuntal passages and clear harmonies.

  4. Ritornello Form: The ritornello form, commonly used in Italian Baroque concertos (where the theme repeatedly appears), also influenced Haydnʼs early symphonies. This form creates unity through clear structure and thematic repetition.

Letʼs look at the individual movements of Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 as specific examples.

First Movement

It begins with a lively Allegro, featuring an energetic theme reminiscent of Vivaldiʼs concertos, characterized by lively rhythms and clear melodies.

Second Movement

Characterized by a gentle Andante with an elegant, singing melody, similar in style to the arias and slow movements of Italian Baroque composers like Scarlatti and Corelli.

Third Movement

Features a fast-paced finale with a structure similar to the ritornello form, where the theme repeatedly appears, adding vitality and brightness to the overall piece.

Thus, Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 shows significant influences from Italian Baroque music. While he was influenced by these elements, he added his creativity to develop his unique style.



I asked ChatGPT4o: “Isnʼt the first movement written in sonata form?”

Regarding whether the first movement of Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 is written in sonata form, it indeed contains elements of sonata form. However, in Haydnʼs early symphonies, a more flexible form incorporating elements of sonata form is often seen, rather than a fully established sonata form.

Characteristics of Sonata Form

Sonata form generally has the following structure:

  1. Exposition: Themes are presented. Typically, two themes are presented in different keys (tonic and dominant).
  2. Development: Themes from the exposition are developed and expanded in various keys.
  3. Recapitulation: Themes from the exposition are restated in the tonic key.

First Movement of Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1

In the first movement of Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1, elements of sonata form are partially present, but it does not fully adhere to a strict sonata form. Specifically:

As a specific example, here is an overview of the first movement of Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1:

  1. First Theme: A theme with a clear rhythm and melody is presented in the tonic key (D major).
  2. Transition: A transition from the tonic to the dominant key (A major) occurs.
  3. Second Theme: A new theme is presented in the dominant key.
  4. Closing Section: A closing section marks the end of the exposition.
  5. Development: Themes from the exposition are developed in different keys, but this section is relatively short.
  6. Recapitulation: Themes from the exposition are restated in the tonic key.
  7. Coda: A short concluding section wraps up the movement.

In Haydnʼs early symphonies, the form is not strict, and there is a degree of freedom in development, making it somewhat loose to call it a complete sonata form. Nevertheless, the basic structure of sonata form is present, providing a foundation for Haydn to develop this form further in his later works.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Before Haydn wrote Symphony No. 1, were the first movements of Johann Stamitzʼs symphonies written in sonata form?"

Johann Stamitz played a significant role in the development of the symphony, and many of his symphonies have first movements written in sonata form. Stamitz was a central figure of the Mannheim School, and his symphonies set the standard for mid-18th-century symphonies.

Sonata Form in Stamitzʼs Symphonies

The first movements of Johann Stamitzʼs symphonies exhibit the following characteristics of sonata form:

  1. Exposition:

  2. Development:

  3. Recapitulation:

Specific Example

As a specific example of Stamitzʼs symphonies, letʼs look at the first movement of Symphony Op. 3 No. 2. This movement has a sonata form structure and can be analyzed as follows:

  1. First Theme: An energetic theme is presented in the tonic key (usually D major).
  2. Transition: A section that modulates from the tonic to the dominant key (A major).
  3. Second Theme: A theme of a different character is presented in the dominant key.
  4. Closing Section: A section that concludes the exposition.
  5. Development: Themes from the exposition are developed in various keys, with motif development and modulations.
  6. Recapitulation: The first theme is restated in the tonic key. The transition and second theme are also restated in the tonic key.
  7. Coda: A short concluding section wraps up the movement.

Johann Stamitzʼs symphonies incorporate such sonata form structures, significantly influencing later composers like Haydn and Mozart. His symphonies are characterized by clear form and tonal contrast, playing an important role in the development of the 18th-century symphony.



I asked ChatGPT4o: “When was Symphony Op. 3 No. 2 written?”

[Searched 3 sites]

The first movement of Johann Stamitzʼs symphony indeed has a structure close to sonata form. His symphony “Op. 3 No. 2” is said to have been written between 1750 and 1754. This movement shows elements of sonata form, but there are some differences from the more mature sonata form that developed later.

Stamitzʼs first movement has the following characteristics:

Stamitzʼs symphonies influenced Haydn and Mozart, contributing to the development of symphonic form and style.

References:Wikipedia, www.ALevelMusic.com, Infogalactic.

Thus, while Stamitzʼs symphonies influenced Haydnʼs early symphonies, Stamitz himself played an important role in the evolution of sonata form.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Did Haydn have the opportunity to encounter Johann Stamitzʼs symphonies before writing Symphony No. 1?"

It is highly likely that Haydn had the opportunity to encounter Johann Stamitzʼs symphonies before writing Symphony No. 1. Here are some reasons:

Musical Environment and Network

  1. Influence of the Mannheim School: Stamitz was a central figure of the Mannheim School, which was highly influential in the mid-18th century. The innovative orchestration, dynamics, and forms of the Mannheim School spread throughout Europe.

  2. Viennaʼs Music Scene: Haydn was from Austria and was greatly influenced by the music scene centered in Vienna. The works of the Mannheim School were also transmitted to Vienna, and it is likely that Haydn had the opportunity to know these works.

  3. Distribution of Sheet Music: In the mid-18th century, the printing and distribution of sheet music were flourishing, and Stamitzʼs symphonies were widely published. It was quite possible for Haydn to access such sheet music.

Music Education and Practice

  1. Freemasonry and Interaction with Musicians: Haydn was a member of the Freemasons and had interactions with many musicians. He may have had the opportunity to encounter the works of other musicians at Masonic gatherings.

  2. Influence of Music Teachers and Mentors: In his youth, Haydn received education from renowned music teachers such as Giovanni Battista Martini and Nicola Porpora. It is possible that they used Stamitzʼs works as teaching material.

Evidence of Specific Influence

Specific features seen in Haydnʼs early symphonies, such as the “Mannheim Rocket” (a rapid ascending figure) and the “Mannheim Crescendo” (a gradual increase in volume), reflect the techniques of Stamitz and the Mannheim School. These techniques suggest that Haydn was directly or indirectly exposed to Stamitzʼs works.

Considering these points, it is highly likely that Haydn had the opportunity to encounter Johann Stamitzʼs symphonies before writing Symphony No. 1.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Wasnʼt Martini in Italy? Also, didnʼt Haydn go to Italy when he was young?"

Indeed, Giovanni Battista Martini lived in Italy, and there is no record of Haydn going to Italy when he was young. However, there are other factors suggesting that Haydn was influenced by Stamitz.

Direct Relationship with Martini

Haydn did not receive direct education from Martini. Martini was active in Bologna, and Haydn did not go to Italy to study with him directly. However, Martiniʼs theoretical works and compositions were influential throughout Europe, and Haydn may have been indirectly influenced by them.

Viennaʼs Music Scene

Vienna was one of the musical centers in the 18th century, where many scores and music gathered. It is believed that Stamitzʼs symphonies and other works of the Mannheim School were performed and spread in Vienna.

Haydnʼs Music Education and Career

Haydnʼs early music education provided him with opportunities to encounter various musical styles while studying in Vienna. His teacher, Nicola Porpora, was an Italian composer active in Vienna. Through Porpora, Haydn may have been exposed to Italian music and theory.

Influence of Stamitz

Johann Stamitzʼs works were representative of the Mannheim School, and their influence was widespread. It is highly likely that Stamitzʼs symphonies were performed in Vienna and other regions, giving Haydn the opportunity to encounter them. Techniques seen in Stamitzʼs symphonies, such as the “Mannheim Rocket” and “Mannheim Crescendo,” also influenced Haydnʼs early symphonies.

Summary

While Haydn did not go to Italy to study with Martini directly, he was indirectly influenced by Martini and Stamitz through the music scene and education in Vienna. This is why Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 exhibits characteristics of Stamitz and the Mannheim School.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Porporaʼs name wasnʼt on the initial list; did Haydn not study under him when he started composing?"

Nicola Porpora was one of Franz Joseph Haydnʼs important teachers, but he did not directly study under Porpora in the early stages of his composing career. Haydnʼs early music education was more self-taught or provided by other local music teachers.

Haydnʼs Early Music Education

  1. Childhood and Youth:

  2. Vienna Boysʼ Choir:

Relationship with Porpora

Haydn came into contact with Porpora in the early 1750s. During this period, Haydn was working as a freelance musician, making a living through various musical activities. Porpora was active in Vienna at that time, and Haydn was employed as Porporaʼs accompanist.

Beginning of Haydnʼs Compositional Activities

Haydnʼs earliest works were composed before his contact with Porpora, mainly consisting of church music and small instrumental pieces. It was after meeting Porpora that he began to write larger works such as symphonies and string quartets.

Therefore, while Haydn did not receive direct education from Porpora when he first started composing, the knowledge and techniques he later learned from Porpora had a significant impact on his compositional style.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Where in Haydnʼs music is the influence of Emanuel Bach evident?"

The influence of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach (C. P. E. Bach) is evident throughout Franz Joseph Haydnʼs music. Here are some specific examples:

1. Rich Emotional Expression

C. P. E. Bach is known for his rich emotional expression, and Haydn was strongly influenced by this. Haydnʼs music features sudden dynamic changes and unexpected modulations, derived from C. P. E. Bachʼs “Empfindsamer Stil” (Sensitive Style).

2. Influence on Keyboard Music

Haydnʼs piano sonatas and keyboard works show a significant influence from C. P. E. Bachʼs keyboard music. Particularly, the improvisational elements, delicate nuances, and variation techniques reflect the influence of C. P. E. Bachʼs keyboard works.

3. Innovation in Form and Structure

C. P. E. Bach contributed to the development of sonata and rondo forms. In Haydnʼs symphonies and string quartets, these forms are refined and elevated to a unique style. Haydn incorporated C. P. E. Bachʼs formal innovations and applied them to his works.

4. Dramatic Effects

C. P. E. Bachʼs music often features dramatic and unpredictable developments. Haydn adopted this technique, creating dramatic effects in his mid to late symphonies and string quartets. Examples include sudden silences, rapid tempo changes, and irregular rhythms.

Specific Examples of Works

Literature and References

By considering these points, it can be said that Haydn learned many musical techniques and expressive methods from C. P. E. Bach, applying them to his works and achieving further development.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Did Haydn write or speak about what he learned from Emanuel Bach?"

There are few direct records of Franz Joseph Haydn writing or speaking about what he learned from Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach (C. P. E. Bach). However, musicologists and biographers have identified C. P. E. Bachʼs influence in Haydnʼs musical style and techniques.

Relationship between Haydn and C. P. E. Bach

  1. Documentary Evidence: Haydn held C. P. E. Bachʼs music in high regard, and there are testimonies indirectly suggesting his influence. For example, Haydn deeply studied C. P. E. Bachʼs “Sonatas for Connoisseurs and Amateurs,” incorporating its expressive style.

  2. Guidance to Students: Haydn recommended C. P. E. Bachʼs works to his students, emphasizing the importance of studying his piano sonatas. This indicates that Haydn highly valued C. P. E. Bachʼs techniques and learned from them himself.

Specific Learning Content

  1. Expression and Emotional Diversity: C. P. E. Bachʼs music, representative of the “Empfindsamer Stil,” is characterized by rich emotional expression. Haydn incorporated this expressiveness into his music, emphasizing emotional performance in his symphonies and chamber music.

  2. Keyboard Instrument Techniques: C. P. E. Bachʼs clavier works are technically demanding, and Haydn adopted these techniques. Haydnʼs piano sonatas and other keyboard works prominently display C. P. E. Bachʼs influence.

  3. Free Form and Improvisation: C. P. E. Bach had a free approach to form, often incorporating improvisational elements. Haydn learned this sense of free form and applied it to his works. His late works, in particular, exhibit strong free form and improvisation.

References

By referring to these materials, one can gain a more detailed understanding of the specific content and influence Haydn learned from C. P. E. Bach.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Is the influence of Emanuel Bach also evident in Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1?"

There is a possibility that Carl Philipp Emanuel Bachʼs (C. P. E. Bach) influence is evident in Franz Joseph Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1, but this is an early work of Haydn, composed at a time when his musical style was not yet fully established. Nevertheless, some elements may show C. P. E. Bachʼs influence.

1. Expressiveness and Emotional Richness

C. P. E. Bachʼs “Empfindsamer Stil” (Sensitive Style) is characterized by rich emotional expression. In Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1, there are parts where sudden dynamic changes and emotional richness in the melody line can be felt. Particularly in the slow second movement, emotional expression is evident.

2. Influence on Keyboard Instruments

C. P. E. Bach was also renowned as a composer for keyboard instruments, and his technical style influenced Haydn. While Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1 does not directly exhibit keyboard techniques, the influence of keyboard instruments on his overall music cannot be ignored.

3. Improvisation and Free Form

C. P. E. Bachʼs music contains many improvisational elements. Haydnʼs early symphonies also exhibit a sense of free form, not bound by strict sonata form, particularly in the development of the first movement.

References

Through these materials, one can gain a deeper understanding of the influence of C. P. E. Bach on Haydnʼs Symphony No. 1. While C. P. E. Bachʼs influence is more pronounced in Haydnʼs more mature later works, signs of it can also be seen in his early works.



I asked ChatGPT4o: "Emanuel Bachʼs Empfindsamer Stil is often related to Haydnʼs Sturm und Drang. Is the influence of Emanuel Bach more strongly evident during the Sturm und Drang period and thereafter?"

Carl Philipp Emanuel Bachʼs (C. P. E. Bach) “Empfindsamer Stil” (Sensitive Style) and Haydnʼs “Sturm und Drang” period are deeply related in terms of musical expressiveness and emphasis on emotion. The influence of C. P. E. Bach is particularly strong in Haydnʼs works during the Sturm und Drang period and thereafter.

Commonalities between Sturm und Drang and Empfindsamer Stil

  1. Richness of Expression:

  2. Dynamic Contrasts and Unexpected Developments:

Influence in Haydnʼs Later Works

  1. Complex Emotional Expression:

  2. Free Form and Structure:

References

Through these materials, one can gain a deeper understanding of the influence of C. P. E. Bach during Haydnʼs Sturm und Drang period and thereafter.

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Created: 2024-12-13 21:18   Edited: 2025-03-28